Summary

Water/wastewater operator customers are asking some strange questions lately. To experts Jeremy Sukola and Eric Zimmerman, it’s as if they’re asking for magic paint. In this episode, we identify an emerging demographic trend and the knowledge gap it’s created. Then, Jeremy and Eric explain why the best ways to close that gap are to have hard conversations early and be involved in educating the next generation.

Also, Eric imagines a driving range on the Mayflower and takes a bold stance against eggnog.

Two important educational outreach initiatives are mentioned in this episode. CarboNext aims to engage, educate, and support the next generation of asset protection engineers and specifiers. And Corrosion School is an long-standing continuing education program Carboline hosts for owners, engineers, specifiers, procurement staff, and applicators. Learn more about that here.

Timestamps

Click to follow along with the transcript:

• 00:00 – Introduction
• 03:08 – Strange questions from customers
• 05:44 – Understanding capabilities and tackling misconceptions
• 08:00 – A generation of seasoned professionals is retiring out
• 10:18 – Part of a familiar trend
• 12:20 – The influence of project schedule pressure
• 14:18 – Capabilities of coatings/linings are limited
• 18:34 – Economic decline brings new contractors into industry
• 20:04 – Manufacturers as problem solvers and honest brokers
• 24:11 – Breaking barriers to knowledge sharing
• 29:35 – Benefits of industry involvement
• 33:12 – Gaining credibility by saying "no"
• 37:57 – Avoid 99% of problems with early collaboration
• 40:00 – Four questions

Transcript

Introduction

Toby Wall: Paint is dumb. It truly is stupid. It can only do what it can do. There's no magic paint. Sounds like a manifesto, but those are the answers to some strange questions that we've been hearing a lot recently. As it is in so many other markets, there's a serious knowledge gap in water and wastewater asset protection.

I'm Toby Wall, and today on The Red Bucket, two subject matter experts explain how this gap opened up and what it will take to close it. And another quick note, a little later in the episode, you'll hear me mention Corrosion School and CarboNext. Those are industry facing educational resources Carboline has created.

Links with more information are provided in the summary of this episode. My guests and I strongly recommend anyone new in the coatings industry give those a look. Now, muscular intro music.

A returning champion joins The Red Bucket today because we can't seem to be rid of Jeremy Sukola. Jeremy, hello.

Jeremy Sukola: Hello everybody. Hey, Toby.

Toby: Jeremy's role is probably one of the longest job titles that we have in the organization. If you could remind everybody listening, what it is that you do? The short way to say it might be everything, but what's the business card say?

Jeremy:Yeah, I think the official title now is Vice President Prime Resins and Water Wastewater Markets. So continuing to act in the market management role or market director role for all of the water wastewater markets for Carboline.

Toby: And in that role, you helped bring along the guest that joins us today. We're very excited to have along Eric Zimmerman. Eric, if you don't mind, you could give us a, maybe a brief biography of your professional life. You're new to Carboline, but you're nowhere near anything like new to coatings.

Eric Zimmerman: No, I appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast today. My role with Carboline is to be the National Business Development Manager for Water and Wastewater Markets. And it's not a, as you alluded to, it's not a role that is new to me. I've been in the protective coatings industry for 27, almost 28 years now. I spent a significant amount of time with a competitor, I did a very similar role of regional business development manager for water wastewater. And so, I've been specifically focused on water and wastewater for about the past decade. I'm very passionate about it. And I'm excited to be here at Carboline to help us exponentially grow those markets and our share in the industry.

Strange questions from customers

Toby: The whole reason we wanted to have this discussion is because you have noticed, both of you have noticed, that subject matter experts in our water wastewater market are starting to get some weird questions. And Jeremy, I wonder if you could start us off. What is happening? What's the phenomenon that you've seen, and maybe share some of those, some examples of those strange questions.

Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. You know, in our roles, we field questions from a lot of different types of customers. Those customers may be our reps internally, could be a contractor, a specifier, an owner. I would say a trend over the last few years, and maybe even longer than that, maybe the last decade, but really more the last few years, are questions that are not necessarily geared towards some real specific technical questions that have to do with particular coatings and linings, but more questions that are around the edges, around the peripheral. One of the questions that I've been getting a lot, and I'm sure Eric in his time here at Carboline and before has gotten this question as well, again, outside of coatings and linings, it's about surface preparation. And I would say that the most common question that I get asked now is around, how do we get out of doing surface preparation before applying coatings. A lining system, not so much with coatings, atmospheric coatings, but especially on the water and wastewater side. If we've got an aggressive environment where we're going to be putting on a high-build lining system, maybe some resurfacers or even on an NSF application where, you know, we've got products that are, that are UL- or NSF-certified for contact with potable water, the question is, "I noticed that your data sheet says to do this. I noticed that the specs kind of ask us to do this. Do we really have to do that? Can we do this?" Right? Which is usually far less. I'd say that's probably one of the most common questions that I get right now that I consider strange because of just, you know, in the industry, everybody really does understand that surface prep is the foundation of a successful lining system. Eric, would you agree that that's a common question that you're getting asked?

Understanding capabilities and tackling misconceptions

Eric: Yeah, it is. And, you know, there's a stark contrast between what you, and you alluded to it, you know, with atmospheric coatings and then immersion-grade linings, there are technologies that are surface-tolerant, that can allow for minimized surface prep and atmospheric situations. Now, that significantly impacts the long term service life of those coatings, but you can do that in particular instances and use coatings technology to assist in that process. But when it comes to immersion linings, there's really not a shortcut. And, you know, I think one of the common misconceptions that I see, specifically when we talk about concrete, is that, you know, we provide, as a manufacturer, we provide a range for a concrete surface profile in our technical data, and a degree of cleanliness. And a lot of times people feel that, you know, primers will aid in the adhesion for immersion linings. And it's really not what primers are designed for, for concrete linings. It's the, the fact that primers are there to stop, you know, some moisture vapor emissions, but your adhesion is really gained from that mechanical profile and trying to educate specifiers and contractors on that, that there is no magic pill. We have to do the work. We have to get the surfaces clean and profiled correctly, before we're going to have a successful lining installation.

Toby: So you brought up the phrase that's pretty close to the title for this episode, which is no magic paint, no magic pill. So your points are taken. Here are these questions that are coming at you. Jeremy, you said that this was maybe only a few years, a few recent years where these questions were coming in. What was happening before that?

A generation of seasoned professionals is retiring out

Jeremy: Yeah. So in the industry, I would say that, you know, as a lot of our industry SMEs retire out, uh, this is another one of those circumstances where if you look at engineering firms, for instance, there was a time where almost every engineering firm would have a SME on staff. Somebody that had some really good knowledge about the workings of coatings and linings, surface preparation, you know, this person may have even gone through some of our, you know, formal training in AMPP or legacy in NACE/SSPC. We're starting to see less and less of that in the industry. And, you know, it's just a, it's a reality that specifiers, engineers, they, they, you know, they've got to be responsible for doing a lot of things. We've got a lot of younger people coming into the industry. So that knowledge base just isn't there. I would say that's even the case on the coating manufacturer side is a lot of long-standing reps that have been in the industry for 30, 40 years, whether they were sales reps or technical sales representatives, or, you know, your standard subject matter experts for a market, as we start to lose some of that knowledge, and we have younger people coming up in the industry, it's a big gap that's pretty prevalent that we're really trying to trying to work through. So that's why I say in the last 10 years, but really more so in the last, I would say, probably three or four years, it's really stood out quite a bit more.

Toby: What comes to mind as I hear you explain that is a demographic fact, I think, or a demographic headline that we've been seeing a lot lately. And I don't intend that we should try to solve that problem here. This isn't the podcast where we fix education systems. But I would point out, we've been hearing a whole lot about, oh, there's a shortage in the skilled trades. Oh, there's a shortage of truck drivers. Oh, there's a shortage of this, that, and the other. Is this part of that, do you think?

Part of a familiar trend

Eric: Yeah, I'm going to step in here, Jeremy. Sorry. You know, I have been very involved in the National Rural Water Association and rural water associations at the state level. And you know, you see it there as well with, water operators and people to assist in running the plants, the experienced people that are controlling the cleaning and processing of our dirty and clean drinking water, they're aging out and retiring at a very rapid pace. There's a massive void there for operators and it is, you know, quite problematic. There's been some states that have had some aggressive programs to put in place for internships and mentorships to try to lure new operators into the water market, but we see it across the board and Jeremy talked about it with engineering firms. Their staffs have gotten younger. They're not as siloed anymore, or specialized. They tend to be more generalist. You see that across the coatings and linings industry as well with the turnover in younger people. And with contractors as well, it is incredibly challenging for contractors to get labor to apply these, you know, highly technical coatings and lining systems and to Jeremy's point earlier, you know, perform the surface prep that will make it have the adequate life cycle. So it's an extreme challenge in our world right now to get skilled labor to run the plants and the machines and build the systems that we need to operate.

The influence of project schedule pressure

Jeremy: You started this off by asking me about a few questions and I think a couple of other questions come up that highlight another issue that we have in the industry. The questions that we get around how the coatings are either applied or cure, that are very specific to timeframes. Right? For instance, again, if we go back to a potable water lining, "Hey, I noticed that this says it cures in seven days. You know, are there, is there anything that we can do outside of introducing heat and expensive measures to speed that up?" Or, "Hey, I noticed I've got to put on 20 mils, but the coating that I'm putting on only goes on in 10 mils. Can I put more on in one coat?" And I think that questions like that that are extremely common now are more reflective of the pressures there are to save time and to save costs. And I think that's another big driver of a lot of these questions. And like I said, you brought up the comment about magic paint, and I think that's where that feeling that, well, if I can just lean on a coating manufacturer to give me the right answers, that they've got magic paint, it's going to hide all of that, or it's going to allow me to do things that are outside of the capabilities of a coating or a lining system. It goes back to this, like I said, this pressure to expedite project timelines to move things forward faster when unfortunately, how a coating cures, unless you're introducing some type of heat or forced curing, is really, it's not something that we can rush, going outside of the capabilities of a coating system as far as, you know, film build or things like that. Those are things that can be addressed proactively, but we can't change what a coating is. There's a pretty common industry saying, you know, “paint is dumb.” Paint only does what it can do. Coatings are formulated to do certain things. So, again, whether it's surface preparation, whether it's expecting a coating or a lining to cure faster, or be applied in a way that's outside of what it's designed for, paint truly is stupid. It can only do what it can do.

Capabilities of coatings/linings are limited

Eric: Yeah, and to, to back that up a little bit, everything in life is about tradeoffs, right? Carboline and Jeremy and I have solutions that can circumvent some of these challenges that they have in the contracting world. Maybe a product that cures faster or can be applied at lower temperatures or, you know, can be applied at higher film thicknesses in a single coat to save time. Those technologies exist, but there's a tradeoff in the type of application equipment that needs to be used or the degree of surface preparation that needs to be performed to apply that. So while there are viable solutions, the idea that there's magic paint and that you can open a bucket and it goes on the surface perfectly without any effort from a contractor or an inspector or an engineer is false. So you have to weigh all of the options and determine what's the best path moving forward to complete this project successfully and profitably because that's ultimately what all the contractors and us are working to do is, have successful profitable projects.

Jeremy: I use a couple of analogies when I explain this to, you know, people who will reach out and ask these questions is, you know, for like curing, a coating to cure to service a little bit faster. It's almost like going to the trouble of, you know, baking a birthday cake for somebody, and pulling it out halfway through the bake. It may still look like a cake, but once you cut into it and serve it to your guests, you're going to find out real quick what you've got. Or, you know, building a beautiful home, best looking house on the block, and didn’t even put insulation in it. So it looks great until winter comes and you're going to freeze to death. So there are a lot of things that are done to get over the hump, you know, move things along, but the primary goal of applying a protective lining system, for the most part, is to get the maximum service life out of it. So, choosing the right coating, putting it on correctly, over a properly prepared surface with industry standard quality control, quality assurance processes. That's how you get that. So, when these questions come in like that, it's really about education. It's trying to educate the person who's asking the question, maybe to rethink about why they're asking that question. And then that can help us on future projects.

Toby: I'm trying to put myself in the boots of those folks asking these questions. And so let's say that I ask, "Hey, how can I speed this up?" Manifesting the pressure that's on them to do this quickly. And they're in conversation with either of you gentlemen. And you tell them the answer. Are they shocked to hear that, you know, "Hey, paint's dumb. It just can only do what it does." How do they react to that? And then what do they do next?

Jeremy: I'm sure Eric would probably agree. It runs the gamut. You'll some responses will be like you just described. “Oh, wow. I didn't realize that.” Or, a surprise at how many options there are other types of coatings. And sometimes the reply is, "That's the cards we've been dealt. We're just trying to get through the project. That's it." So I would say it's both those extremes and everywhere in between, depending on who you're talking to.

Economic decline brings new contractors into industry

Eric: Quite honestly, many times, you mentioned the, the pressure, you know, the contractual pressure that that exists in a lot of these projects, the responses are quite often reflective of the degree of pressure that is there. That's one of the major challenges that we see quite frequently in the water/wastewater market where, especially when, you know, the economy dips a little bit and contractors try to diversify their portfolios. And so now contractors who primarily have been dealing with steel coatings and linings come and work in water/wastewater, preparation of concrete, understanding how pH affects adequate surface preparation and readiness for resurfacers and lining, and understanding the variability in concrete. When Jeremy or I start to explain a lot of those factors to contractors and the steps that they realistically have to go through, if they haven't put the proper protocols or money in place in the bid process of that, their reaction can have a little bit more volume in it, you know, coming back to us. But I think both of us have been in those situations enough, we understand how to try to explain that, and in a way that can be as palatable to the contractor as possible.

Manufacturers as problem solvers and honest brokers

Jeremy: Really what it comes down to is, continuing to be a resource and help provide a solution. We're often thrown into situations that are difficult for a customer, where the conditions are not ideal and really, as a material manufacturer, it's our job to be part of the solution. We're part of the project. We need to be part of finding a way to get through the pressures that our customer might be feeling, whether it's an owner, whether it's a specifier, whether it's a contractor. It's really just kind of diving in and finding out how best to reach the end goal that mitigates risk as much as possible, but also helps provide a solution for the customer.

Eric: The primary job for Jeremy and I is to have that knowledge and be that resource, but to be as blunt and straightforward as possible and not dance around what the realistic solutions are, because, you know, there can be a tremendous amount of pressure that is applied with schedule and budgets and things like that. It is better to address those concerns immediately on the front side and evaluate options rather than trying to skim around the edges. And those can be challenging conversations, but it's most important to just be honest and up-front and say, "Hey, these are the challenges that you're facing. And these are your options for solutions. Let's decide what the best path is."

Jeremy: Unfortunately, what I do see a lot is I do see customers who may be in such a pickle that they may be shopping around for the answer that they want to hear. And unfortunately, there are people who will provide the answer that they want to hear. Maybe it's just to, you know, position a little better. Maybe it's to sell a gallon of paint, you know, that does exist out there. I would say by and large, most of the industry wants to operate on the up-and-up, but that does happen from time to time, which can make the problem exponentially worse. So I always do caution people that, hey, you're asking a question, I'm going to give you my take on it as a coatings professional, not necessarily just an employee of Carboline, because what I'm going to tell you might be hard information to hear. You're probably going to hear it from everyone else the same, if they're being honest. So I always try to position it that way, that I don't ever want to seem like I'm trying to box out a competitor just to sell a solution that's not a valid one. I always want to give the, you know, if it's bad medicine, sometimes it's bad medicine, but we've got to take it.

Eric: To that end, Jeremy, I mean, we both have been in the industry for a long time and we have competitors, coworkers, industry associates, and quite frequently when you have that, when I have those difficult conversations, I will just refer the contractor or whoever we're talking about, "Look, if you want a second opinion on this, call person X at this company. And they'll tell you the exact same thing because that is the truth.” Because there's no magic bullet for this, right? The truth can't be fabricated. The facts exist as they are. And we need to, like I said earlier, sometimes you just have to rip the band-aid off.

Breaking barriers to knowledge sharing

Toby: As I hear you talk about the ways that manufacturers should be a resource to these decision makers, as a person whose job it is to create marketing materials, promotional materials, educational materials, this is all the sort of stuff that, you know, when it's your job to do this every day, like, ah, that's a broken record to me, you know. This is what everybody says should happen. I want to take that a step further because, and it's not just water/wastewater, it's anywhere in coatings, especially as construction delivery methods evolve, that on the manufacturer's side, folks like us haven't always been viewed as the resource that we know that we are, haven't been viewed as someone you can or should turn to as a problem solver early in the process. And you've talked about having those hard conversations and sometimes it's medicine that needs to be swallowed, sometimes it's ripping the band-aid off. It can just be a barrier getting in the door to have that conversation. So what have you seen work in terms of getting through that door, knowing that it isn't always easy to get in front of those right people? Because there's the, just the preconceived, you know, notion or opinion of what role a manufacturer should play.

Jeremy: I couldn't agree more. Oftentimes customers that we interact with may see paint salesmen, as, you know, somebody there just to, you know, sell a good or a service. And that's the ultimate goal. But I think that what the industry leaders in our world do is involve themselves in committees, conferences, industry associations, where we are connecting with those specifiers, those engineers, and owners and contractors outside of a business setting and more in a setting of learning, right? And what that does is gives us the opportunity to talk about things other than, "Hey, we want to sell you paint. We want you to specify our paint only." We're going to educate a little bit about surface preparation or new technologies or things that affect projects. Right? Different ways that we're procuring and buying and running projects now. So, for us to be part of the solution, we have got to get involved in the industry and show the industry that we are involved. We understand the pain points and we are working to be part of the solution here. So, I think industry involvement is huge to break down a lot of those barriers when, you know, when your customers see that you are thinking about the same things that they're thinking about, you're getting involved in education for those younger guys coming up. I think that goes a long way.

Eric: I could not agree more. You stole almost every word I was going to say, Jeremy. That's a great answer because, you know, the benefit of our roles, as more SMEs in the industry, is that, you know, we can author some of the white papers and give presentations at industry shows and events. While we are paid by Carboline, it is there in the interest of the industry and it's a more generic presentation that educates and, you know, we can build that credibility and trust within the municipal owner group and the specifier group that we, as individuals, understand the challenges and have solutions and yes, we're going to provide our solutions that Carboline offers. We're also going to give you a well-rounded look at what's going to solve that problem, you know, holistically. And it's just spending the time building those relationships and developing that trust within the specifier and owner group.

Jeremy: When I look at this at a micro level, I have been an instructor for AMPP, previously NACE, historical NACE, I am an instructor for AMPP and have been for almost 10 years now. When I instruct, you know, basic CIP1, Coating Inspector Program number 1, it's funny, sometimes the classes that I'm instructing are made up of paint reps from competitors. Engineers, owners, contractors. We'll have 25, 30 people across the board from, you know, different parts of the industry. And I would say by the middle of day two, probably, we've all taken our company logos off of our shirts and hats and are having honest conversations about things that are relevant to successful coating projects, right? It has nothing to do with whose paint does that or what contractor did this or this specifier only, you know, uses this material. It's refreshing to see that because, again, when we talk about educating the community, I don't think you see it anywhere better than the conferences that we attend, you know, sitting through presentations and even these courses, where you've got people looking to expand their knowledge so they could get involved and alleviate some of what we've just spent the last 20 or 30 minutes talking about. So it's really fun to see that. And it's one of the things that I enjoy most about that specific part of getting involved in the industry, is just seeing my competitors sitting across the table from me, or like I said, contractors, owners, engineers, getting everybody in the same room and talking about the things that are really important.

Benefits of industry involvement

Toby: I can say it from personal experience and I'm not even necessarily the target audience for those kinds of meetings or those kinds of symposia. But I have sat in on those, and Carboline hosts its fair share of those. I'll put links in the description to this episode for Corrosion School, which we do, and for CarboNext, which is a sort of an online modular learning that we do. You know, it's interesting that we bring up the knowledge gap, because there is a tool out there, I'm sure other manufacturers have this too, but we have ours, it's called CarboNext, that is meant to provide some of this education that if more folks coming into the industry had it, might have prevented some of those questions that you are being asked. But that was a real big parenthesis to the point, which is, I've been in on those kinds of conferences, what would constitute industry involvement, and if anyone is toying around with the idea of going to that, or is maybe a little bit reluctant to ask your employer to send you to one of those, whether it's something that we host or anyone else does. I'm the marketing guy and I come away with pages of notes out of those and those aren't even for me. Yeah, please attend as many of these as you can. I have seen those organic discussions pop up, between individuals, you know, attendees and instructors, but also attendee to attendee. It's sort of magical to watch that happen.

Eric: Oh, it absolutely is. I strongly recommend being as involved in your particular industry segment as what you possibly can. Every show that I go to, regardless of how long I've been in a particular industry, I learn something from that, I glean information from that. Even if it's just a new contact and a new resource for us to lean on. Because, look, Jeremy and I don't know everything. Well, Jeremy might, quite honestly.

Jeremy: No, I was going to say speak for yourself there, Eric.

Eric: But, we all have mentors and peers that we lean on for information and increasing that network and sitting in on a competitor's discussion or an engineer's discussion, or, you know, the case history profiles that are at a lot of these shows that talk about successful or unsuccessful projects. Those are all opportunities to learn and increase your knowledge base and your network. And I thoroughly enjoy those opportunities. And particularly enjoy the opportunities when we get the chance to present at them. I think it's good for the industry and quite enjoyable. But I highly encourage anyone who is on the fence about attending one of those shows to do it, attend the social functions, meet as many people as you can, attend the sessions, and increase your knowledge base.

Toby: A while back, you guys were saying, the answer might not be Carboline, you know, might not be our buckets that you buy. It sounds like if someone wants to talk to you, you'll talk to ‘em and you're going to shoot ‘em straight and tell ‘em, yeah, here's what would work, or I can point you to what might work for this situation.

Gaining credibility by saying "no"

Eric: Look, as an RPM company with all of our sister companies, we have a variety of solutions that can solve problems across a multitude of industries, but even as diverse as our offerings are, we don't have solutions for every situation. And as we talked about, there are some situations that alternate coatings or linings technology are not going to solve. And you have to be honest and up-front with your client. Sometimes that means the answer is no. And those are hard discussions. And quite honestly, I think we gain more credibility in the situations where we're honest and we say, “No, that will not work,” than trying to fit a round peg into a square hole and make something work on the fringes.

Jeremy: Absolutely agree. I live by a saying, "'No' is a complete sentence." Sometimes the answer to Eric's point is "no." Paint doesn't fix everything. Right? So I would say that, I don't want to speak for Eric, but I can probably safely say that Eric and I both have been put in a situation many more times than once where we're asked to agree with something that someone is going to do where they're going to lean heavily on the paint working where paint is not the solution, right? It could be an alternate solution. It could be something completely different. But we've had to say, “It doesn't matter what Carboline paint you put on, or whatever competitor coating you put on, paint is not the answer here,” or we've had to say, "Our paint, what you're planning on using, is not the answer here.” That's how you become a resource for somebody. If you're trying to convince somebody all the time that only, this is where we get back to that idea of magic paint, right? We make magic paint, only our paint works. If that's the position you put yourself in with people who are calling you for honest advice, you're not a resource, right? That's not what a resource is. You're not a trusted resource. You might be the third or fourth person that's called on the next project, but you're not a trusted resource. And so that's how we get to the point where we're comfortable getting the right answer is by talking to that person who will give me the hard truth, right? So, sometimes that's what we have to do is give that hard truth.

Eric: Yeah, but the really challenging situations are where you have those conversations and you say, "What you're trying to do is not going to work." And your opinion is not received well or abided by and the project proceeds as planned and it goes horribly wrong. And then it comes back and they ask, “Well, why didn't it work?” And you have to refer back to the conversations that we had three months ago, right, where you were told that this is not going to work and now all that has happened is the schedule has been extended out. The cost to remediate this has gone up exponentially and the confidence and trust in all parties has been eroded. So that's why we just have to stand on what is right, what has been proven through the years as best practices, industry standards, and be forthright with all the clients that we work with to try to help them avoid those very painful situations.

Jeremy: It goes back to the whole idea of getting back to basics, right? That's the whole idea is, is getting back to basics. What we do in this industry does not have to be difficult. Sometimes, it's made difficult unnecessarily, right? There are some basic things that I think most people understand that have to be done.

Eric: Plain, dull and dry. Right? As simple as that.

Avoid 99% of problems with early collaboration

Jeremy: That's it. That's it. You know, but when we start to go back to the beginning of this conversation, what that leads to is the questions of, “Okay, I know I need to do these two or three things. I would like to do A instead of B, one instead of two,” you know, that's where we get off track. And so it's all about going back to basics. That's really what it boils down to. Working early with your manufacturer, right? That's where we avoid 99 percent of these problems, because if we can collaborate early, if we could talk about some of the challenges you might face on your project, we can change gears, we can offer a different material. Maybe that different material has different surface prep requirements that can save a little bit of time on the project. Maybe it cures a little bit faster. Maybe it cures at a little bit lower temperature because it's a specific time of the year. Maybe it applies a little different, that’s maybe a little bit friendlier to the contractor who's going to be putting it on. Those are the things that we can get involved with early and help really see what's going to come and avoid those issues.

Eric: Yeah, and I think that's one place that the industry has started to make a significant shift is, much more collaborative delivery systems, specifically in water/wastewater, where, look, there are still design-bid-build projects that go out every day, but the more collaborative design-build efforts where you put a team together and you have an end goal, a schedule, and a budget to come under and the team builds that solution collaboratively. That's where what Jeremy just talked about can happen. Okay, well, we need to get done by December 31. You know, these are the types of solutions that that can be put in place and we present those, and everyone builds the project around those solutions and the end goal. Those projects tend to be much more successful and enjoyable as, you know, you move forward as a collaborative team.

Toby: That's a good punctuation mark, I think, to put on this.

Four questions

Jeremy: Toby, if we have some time, I'd like to talk about politics for a little while.

Toby: We could talk politics or we could ask Eric the four questions, which is, I know is everybody's actual favorite part of this. Who cares about the industry expertise. We are recording this episode in the vicinity of, it's after Thanksgiving, it's not Christmas time yet, but it's in the holiday mindset that I ask you question number one, Eric, are there any family traditions or occurrences associated with the holiday season tha, that you can recall from either earlier in life or even more recently, holiday family traditions?

Eric: Yeah. I mean, as it, as it relates specifically to Christmas, there is a particular breakfast sweet roll that my mother made out of a specific bundt pan that has been a favorite of our family since I was very small. And she passed away in 2016 from cancer, and I have that bundt pan, and that is a tradition, we make those for Christmas morning every year, and it's a cherished memory. It's a way to honor her, and quite honestly, they're very delicious, and calories don't count on Christmas, so.

Toby: No, not at all.

Eric: They're perfect.

Toby: Next time you're in St. Louis, I expect some of those to pass around. Question number two. What's your opinion on eggnog?

Eric: I don't acknowledge the word.

Toby: Fair enough. Question number three. When I first met you was at a workshop here in St. Louis. If I'm remembering correctly, you said that you can take your genealogy back to the Mayflower. Am I right about that?

Eric: That's, that is correct. I'm a direct descendant of the Mayflower. My paternal grandmother was into genealogy. Um, a member of the Mayflower Society, Daughters of the Pioneers, the Goddard family tree, and so, and on my mom's side, we are, they are naturalized Finnish Americans. My grandparents were the first generation that were born here in the United States. Their parents emigrated from Finland in the early 1900s. So I know on both sides of the family where directly my lineage came from. It's kind of cool.

Jeremy: Your forefathers would be extremely disappointed in your take on eggnog.

Eric: Well, that's, you know what, I'm comfortable as an adult human to be able to debate that with my forefathers. Eggnog is nasty. And so it will, it does not pass these lips.

Toby: Here’s my question though. I was looking at the journey of the Mayflower. That was two months long. If you made that journey, Eric, what do you take along for entertainment?

Eric: Well, unfortunately, they didn't have Wi Fi or anything there at those times. So, I guess I would hope that there's a platform on the back of the Mayflower and we put a mat down and we have a gross of range balls and I'd hit 7-irons off the back of the boat and maybe drink a little bit of bourbon as we floated across the ocean.

Toby: That sounds awesome. All right. Question number four. Would you rather water ski behind the Mayflower or water ski behind an aircraft carrier?

Eric: Well, the Mayflower is not going to have enough speed to water ski behind, and while it would be extremely difficult and dangerous to be behind the Nimitz or one of those large nuclear aircraft carriers, I think it would be fun. And then be an absolute extra thrill to watch our military land their jets on that as you water skied behind. So, I'm going to go with supporting the U. S. military and water skiing behind a carrier.

Toby: Just don't try to talk to anybody because they're not going to hear you back there.

Eric: No, you're, yeah, if you fall off, you're dead and that's okay. That's a risk that, you know, Jeremy and I talked earlier about inherent risks in projects, and that's one of those, that if you're going to be behind there, you better have a life jacket and a shark proof vest, right?

Jeremy: I would agree that if you are risky enough to water ski behind a nuclear aircraft carrier, prepare for the risk.

Eric: I guess, Toby, the real answer is I couldn't water ski behind anything. I've tried my entire life and maybe been up two or three times successfully. So, neither one, the Mayflower or a carrier would go well for me.

Toby: The point is moot, but, on the subject of projects and project success, if you want a life vest, or if you want a shark proof vest, Eric and Jeremy make pretty good vests. So I'm really happy that both of you could join me for this discussion. Thanks very, very much.

Eric: Thank you, Toby.

Jeremy: Thanks Toby.